This may be late as the discussion has moved on but:







Using the stats on the SL website:



Year - Penalties conceded (No of Games) - Avg per SL Reg Rd -



2003 - 170 (28 ) - 6.07

2004 - 142 (28 ) - 5.07

2005 - 125 (28 ) - 4.46

2006 - 162 (28 ) - 5.79

2007 - 198 (27) - 7.33

2008 - 215 (27) - 7.96

2009 - 180 (22) - 8.18



The rot set in between Smith's second and third season.



While the numbers are still increasing under McClennan (that was happening anyway before he took over) the rate of increase has been declining under his tutelage.

Falls into the Smith category - worse this year.

That's a very lazy job.



We need comparisons for all players for Smith's first two years in charge and Mclennans'



Then and only then can you doubt the obvious conclusion that this team is far more ill disciplined than its' predecessors.



In fact, the only reliable statistic is where we lie in the fair play table, rather than comparing ourselves from previous seasons and I am afraid THAT statistic doesn't lie.



Under Mclennan we are the 2nd most ill disciplined team in the league. Levels Smith's teams did not stoop to.

surely it shouldnt be about the people who give away the penalties but rather the type of penalties that as team we are giving away?

Burgess slightly worse, Diskin markedly better this year.

I refer you to my noble colleagues statistics provided above.

Up to his final season Smith kept the penalties lower than his predecessor not something Mclennan has ever been able to manage.



2007 was very wide of Smith's previous three seasons whereas both Mclennans seasons have been far too high and higher than Smith's worse season.



Dress it up all you like but its' clear discipline is far worse under Mclennan than it was under Smith.



If he stays and he continues to fail with the issue then one wonders what the figures will look like in Mclennan'sennan's fourth year in charge.

A valid point Loz

Yes, lower than his predecessor's final season (not necessarily Powell's best or even average return though)







The team was already becoming less disciplined under Smith, McClennan has managed to slow that trend although he hasn't managed to halt the increases as yet.







If the current trend continues in year three and four under McClennan the rate should reduce to around 7.58 compared to Smith's final return of 7.33. He may need a fifth season to return a figure below Smith's final season at Leeds.



Fingers crossed eh?

Even if our levels are similar to last year,maybe other teams have improved theirs and why we are the second worst.

After this weekend its back to worst.



Taking that point though, the number of penalties per season (for all clubs combined) has varied by a huge amount. So...



...this is the percentage of penalties conceded by Leeds, of all penalties awarded in the season:



2003 8.80%

2004 7.29%

2005 6.98%

2006 6.71%

2007 7.80%

2008 8.23%

2009 8.65%



I wonder how any of that would compare to Graham Murray's Leeds?



There seems a general assumption that penalties should be eradicated but there's a reasonable case to say that penalties are the price you pay for contesting the ruck, being quick off the mark defensively and tackling with aggression. Its finding the balance that's key.

I doubt wether that'd be worth it there appear to be far more penalties nowadays than in murrays era.

I know its a bit different, but at the level we play at, we start the game looking to test the ref, and see what we can get away with at the breakdown. The potential price is a few penalties. The potential benefit is an extra second to organise your line, each tackle. Makes it worth trying.



However, the players should be able to know what they can and can't get away with by 10 mins into the match. Most of the holding down/interfering is just dumb, and killing us

Indeed.



The major flaw with Puig Aubert's attempts to cloud the obvious with statistics is it doesn't show whether Leeds were winning or losing the penalty count and that is the key.



If leeds averaged 7 penalties against a game under Smith it's not an issue if we're being awarded 15 as it means we're not giving away more territory and possession to our opponents.



What we do know, courtesy of TVOC, is that in the vast majority of games under M<clennan we have LOST the penalty count.



That is where the crunch lies not in the catual numbers.

Interesting.



Naturally, I (at least) have no agenda either way. The stats are what the stats are.



The discipline of some players has improved, for others it has got markedly worse. The stats do focus on Leeds's discipline - only half of any penalty count - as that's the area the discussion and criticism has focussed on. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that the coach should be chastised for his side not being awarded enough penalties?



There are some who have forcefully proclaimed that the high penalty count is caused by the current coach; others have unwittingly and amusingly followed in their wake; and others have simply chastised him for not solving the problem even if they recognise it probably wasnt of his making.



Of course you can interpret the stats however you wish but it would seem rather disengenuous to chastise the coach for apparently not trying to solve the discipline problem when a number of his charges seem to have curbed [itheir [/ipenalties so well.

2008: I only have penalty counts for 29 of the 35 games played.



Leeds - Won 11, Drawn 3, Lost 15 (Penalties received 247, Conceded 259)



2009: Complete (All Comps)



Leeds - Won 6, Drawn 4, Lost 14 (Penalties received 165, Conceded 209)

Best post on this thread



Lock IT

Gosh, things have gotten even worse under McLennan than I imagined. That is a terrible record this year.



If only you had stats for penalty counts won/lost under Smith. I suspect they would be very illustrative.

The point I have continually made is that this team and indeed this squad of players is more than capable of success if they could stop giving themselves mountains to climb with needless handing away possession and territory through lost penalty counts.



That we are conceding far more penalties than our opponents on such an alarmingly regular basis confirms something we have discussed about the deterioration in our relationship with referees.



Winning the penalty count (and respecting possession) are massive contributory factors in winning and losing in today's super league.



The self serving statistics you showed average penalties per game didn't look half as alarming or give the true picture as TVOC's statistics showing penalty counts lost.



How you're going to persue your agenda of defending the indefensible in light of this I await with baited breath.

What makes you think that I haven't to some degree.....







[size=59..... other than my not reproducing them on here.[/size

I suspect if you had....and they countered my point....they'd have been whipped out like a shot.



You usually play a straight hand |(unlike some

) and I think you'd have recounted them even if they supported my argument.



I therefore concluded that you don't have them.



But you could compile them I bet if you had the inclination

This is TVOC you're talking about, he's always got the inclination to produces stats!

There's a bit of a chicken/egg situation here.



Are we fatigued (through small stretched squad maybe), and therefore give more penalties away, or do we give too many penalties away, which leads to more defence, and therefore get more fatigued.



Difficult question. I do remember us losing a few penalty counts at the start of the year.

In a heartbeat.







Not sure I appreciate your use of the word usually there in relation to the stats that I produce.







I have them (with gaps) going back to 2005. I know they'll support your Smith V McClennan thesis but I wouldn't let that stop me publishing as you've graciously accepted above.



I'll have a look and add what I have to the McClennan ones.



__________



Tony Smith:



2005: 36 Complete (All Comps).



Leeds - Won 20, Drawn 5, Lost 11 (Penalties received 242, Conceded 216)



2006: Counts for 32 of the 33 games played (All Comps).



Leeds - Won 12, Drawn 6, Lost 14 (Penalties received 206, Conceded 181)



2007: Counts for 24 of the 32 games played (All Comps).



Leeds - Won 9, Drawn 3, Lost 12 (Penalties received 186, Conceded 193)



Brian McClennan:



2008: Counts for 29 of the 35 games played (All Comps).



Leeds - Won 11, Drawn 3, Lost 15 (Penalties received 247, Conceded 259)



2009: Complete (All Comps)



Leeds - Won 6, Drawn 4, Lost 14 (Penalties received 165, Conceded 209)

Excellent post